Friday, June 5, 2009

"High Fantasy" vs. "Sword & Sorcery" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D

OPEN AND PUBLIC FIRST DRAFT

When I was in the process of discovering old-school, there were a couple of forum discussions that had a key role in the deconstruction of my gaming paradigms, and the slow building of a new way of approaching D&D that made me comprehend and enjoy it better. I got them bookmarked and still go back to them from time to time, when I need to clarify some things for myself.

Many of this discussions predate the old-school renaissance. There was no Labyrinth Lord, no Sword&Wizardry, no Fight On!. The OD&D Discussion forum did not exist (I believe it had an important role in the renaissance), the blog-sphere was very small, OSRIC was just beginning, and so many things we have today where just not there. I believe that this discussions where quite relevant for the understanding of the game to many, but I'll never really know - they where at least very important for me.

Here they are. They are somewhat long. If you want to read them, prepare yourself for a very thought provoking experience. There is a lot you can agree and disagree on, but they are really fascinating discussions. Keep an eye for the old-school "usual suspects":





What follows in this blog post will be easier to understand if you have read the discussions linked:

You might be thinking "hey, but this discussions are more about swords & sorcery than old-school itself!". Yes, indeed they are. But what happened to me is that:

Once I understood sword & sorcery as applied to gaming, I began to understand so many things old-school D&D is so often criticized for.

A non exhaustive list:
1) Higher degree of player skill involved in survival.
2) Higher degree of luck involved in survival.
3) Save or die effects (a big one).
4) Random encounters.
5) Lack of automatically balanced challenges (another big one).
6) Powerful, impartial, unforgiving DMs.
7) Lack of "story", as something mostly pre-planned to play itself.
8) Lack of "adventure paths" or "sagas".
9) Possibility of playing any alignment, at any time and moment.
10) Lack of pre-planned rewards everyone should automatically obtain.

All of which boil down to: Lack of player entitlement.

In "High Fantasy" gaming, as opposed to" Sword & Sorcery" gaming, the PCs, the good guys, are meant to win on the sole reason they are the good-guys, and good should always triumph. If it were to be defeated, it's defeat should be meaningful, it should be a contribution to the ultimate end: the victory over evil. The game starts with the premise that good will finally triumph over evil, maybe after much suffering and loss, but that is the main theme guiding and controlling all what is happening and should happen.

In sword & sorcery gaming, nothing of that is true. Success is not based upon your goodness, higher morals, or desire of the well being of the world. In sword & sorcery gaming success is based solely on luck, access to resources and sheer ability. Even if your character is good, or the protagonist, that gives him no entitlement whatsoever to success, or to "special treatment".

Without really noticing it, many people don't want to play sword & sorcery gaming. What they want, is to play a story about good winning the epic battle against evil. This is what you see many people striving for. It's not that explicit or evident, but it's there. But the true is that, if you want to play High Fantasy with D&D, specially old-school D&D, the game WILL FAIL YOU.

"How can my character die to the poison of randomly rolled spider?".

"I needed to fudge the dice in order to save the story".

"Every hero should have the appropriate magic items".

"By the moment they reach level 12, I plan the mayor confrontation with their nemesis - so I need them to survive at least until that point, it's the story".

"A character should never die to the random encounter or to mere mooks, his death should be fighting something significant".

"I don't want the DM to ruin my character, he is supposed to mean something, he is the hero".

The conflict between this two genres has been, in my humble opinion, a main factor driving change thought the history of D&D. It's certainly not the only one, and it might be it's most unperceived, but I really believe it plays an underlying mayor role. In many flaming edition wars and D&D hate over the net, what's really in discussion is what type of game people want to have: a game of High Fantasy vs. a game of Sword & Sorcery. I think many people don't realize this. Or if they do, they don't put it out so explicitly.

The main reason many people don't like the older versions of the D&D game, it's because its a game of sword & sorcery as opposed to a game of high fantasy. But many people don't realize this is the main reason for their dislike. As they think D&D should satisfy their High Fantasy pretensions, and it fails at it, they think the game is badly designed.

In the older versions of D&D, your alignment, or your position as a player/protagonists: "Gave you no entitlement, or right to anything. No outside support to achieve your objectives. The only one you could rely on was yourself.

And in that way, the spirit of sword & sorcery was brilliantly and elegantly captured in D&D.

High Fantasy Tropes in D&D:
D&D included from it's beginning tropes that are more common to High Fantasy literature than to Sword & Sorcery literature: elves, dwarfs, hobbits, some of the evil humanoids, unicorns, good dragons, etc.

Sometimes it is believed that playing D&D in the spirit of sword & sorcery means removing the demi-humans out of D&D "because they don't appear in the sword & sorcery novels". I think that is not correct. Sword & Sorcery is a concept HIGHER than the novels in which it concretes itself. What's important is not if the novel has elves, hobbits, or none of those. If it has clerics or not. What's important is the underlying worldview and moral system.

High Fantasy literature is based on a Christian worldview. According to Christianity, good will finally triumph over evil. God intervenes in history to carry out his plan of salvation. Even more: to many Christian denominations, evil has already been defeated by Jesus Christ on the Cross.

Sword & Sorcery literature is based on an Atheist worldview. So there is no god to take care of you. No god to be the parameter and judge of morality. No higher force of good that will finally triumph over evil. Humanity is alone. So it's all about power and survival.

So... what makes your D&D a game of High Fantasy or Sword & Sorcery, is not if you play with elves, dwarfs, hobbits or clerics. It's about the underlying worldview and moral system of the game setting. The high fantasy troupes are then just cosmetic. What's important is the spirit on which the game is played. They rest are just superficial elements.

Indeed, you could play d20 Conan in a High Fantasy spirit. The Howardian tropes is not what makes the game sword & sorcery. It's the spirit in which the game is played.

The few High Fantasy tropes that made their way into D&D, might have been the main source of confusion as to which genre the game was trying to emulate. People expected the game to work like a High Fantasy novel, and it utterly fails at it.

The game is not badly designed. It is simply not designed for High Fantasy gaming.

The game is designed for sword & sorcery.

History of the D&D game under this analytical approach:
From OD&D to AD&D 1E the game is self-consciously a sword & sorcery game. The cosmetic inclusion of some High Fantasy tropes might be the source of confusion to some, but the game presents itself as sword and sorcery.

2E wants to be High Fantasy, but it does not have the mechanical support to achieve it. There are nearly no elements of player entitlement. They game fails to achieve it's premise. This is the main reason for the spawning of some many alternatives to D&D, that want to achieve High Fantasy with the mechanical support D&D does not have. Those games focus on "getting the story right".

3E wants to go back to it's sword & sorcery roots. But the inclusion of some elements brings some confusion. The majority of fans, many without noticing it, want a game about High Fantasy. THIS is the major underlying source of conflict in all edition wars. High Fantasy elements start creeping into the game, either explicitly in the books, or by the generalized idea of how it is supposed to be played.

4E has more High Fantasy game elements ingrained into the system. But it still has some of the incoherency of 2E and 3E.

Old-school and New-school. Concepts that don't work to understand the differences in the game:
Looking into the future. Could we abandon the use of old-school and new-school as the way of separating the different ways of playing D&D?

Sword & Sorcery D&D vs. High Fantasy D&D would be, IMO, a much better model to understand the differences on how the game is supposed to work.

Ascending armour class, unified XP, etc. are matters that are really secondary in the discussion. What's most important is the SPIRIT in which the game is played

Rules light vs. rules heavy, particular approaches to certain aspects of the rules (AC vs. AAC), are different discussions , and the differentiation should be made.

Old-school and new-school are a mess of ideas and different concepts unnecessarily put together. We need to separate and re categorize the issues and subjects of discussion. Old-school vs. new-school has proven not to work.

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

great!!!

M (the rm fan)

Giga boy said...

PLEASE STOP USING CAPSLOCK
;P

Santiago said...

You are right about that. I tend to try to put graphically my speech as if I were speaking, but I agree it's not comfortable to the eyes. I am editing the text. Thank you.

Jeff Rients said...

Excellent stuff, Santiago.

A correction: mayor, mayority should be major, majority.

Santiago said...

Thank you Jeff.

And LOL, you are right. A literary reading of my spelling mistakes would have had a very weird meaning. Similar to %Liar :D.

Edited.

Oddysey said...

If you don't mind my quoting the Matrix: Woah.

Even if this doesn't cover all of it, this definitely goes a long way towards explaining why people or so darn attached to their particular style of play, to the point where we'll put serious effort arguing about it. There's a worldview difference involved, even if it's just one that applies to gaming.

Santiago said...

As a disclaimer: I am a Christian. I just find an Atheistic world more fun for gaming.

Gods in D&D are just super-powerful begins. But they fight each other to control the world, not to redeem it. And they are not the responsible for the existence of the universe.

This is the sword&sorcery world view.

Santiago said...

Ok, maybe not atheistic. If there is a God in sword&sorcery, it is unlike the Christian God. The sword&sorcery god has left the world alone.

trollsmyth said...

Excellent post! This is one of the ideas I was nibbling around the edges of in my post about the changing aesthetics of D&D. I think you've really nailed it.

I also think that rules-light and rules-heavy isn't entirely a seperate topic, since rules-light seems to support the swords & sorcery style a bit better, while high fantasy might function better with the protagonist-protection that a rules-heavy game can bring to the table. But these are considerations that should perhaps be weighed in light of how they support these two styles, rather than in a vacuum.

- Brian

Santiago said...

I think they are still separate. You could have a very complicated and rules heavy system to determine the hit of an arrow. One that could take into account wind direction and speed, quality of the arrow, very detailed armour rules, etc.

What's key is that the system gives you no "special treatment" or "plot privileges" for being the good guy, or the protagonist

Sean Wills said...

Nice one, Santiago !

Santiago said...

I want to clarify I make no claim for the originality of this thinking.

It's just a synthesis of what many different people said. I tried to make it more clear and coherent, and add some ideas to make it more solid and understandable.

Ragnorakk said...

Fantastic post! I'll be digesting those links for a few days I believe!

Norman Harman said...

"Without really noticing it, many people don't want to play sword & sorcery gaming. What they want, is to play a story about good winning the epic battle against evil."

Strongly agree, some of the other stuff, not so much.

D&D designed to be S&S. What version? D&D is a various quite different rule systems that can be used for many different styles of play.

3E is returning to S&S roots (I see it as ramping up the entitlement by taking power away from DM and giving guarantees to players)


S&S vs HF. Would you say S&S has to be sandbox and HF has to be scripted/storypath? I believe they are orthogonal.

There's at least 3 axis to consider when separating the different ways of playing D&Desque RPGs (one reason for all the flames and angst online and elsewhere)

1) S&S/gritty/realistic vs HF/epic hero/superhuman

2) rules light vs rules heavy

3) sandbox/exploration vs scripted/storypath


I'm not much a follower of Fantasy writing / History so maybe my impressions are way off. But it seems that majority of the literature in old-school times was S&S, while the majority of literature 2nd/3ed folks grew up with was Epic Hero type stuff. Even the art has a hint of this, Otis vs Elmore. I also noticed a resurgence in Lovecraft and more recently Robert .E Howard having led the surge in sandbox/S&S/old-school RPGs we are currently experiencing

Which is cause and which is effect I'm not sure.

Santiago said...

S&S is not necessarily gritty/realistic - that's a concretion in most of it's novels. But it can be a high powered, supers game. What's important is the underlying worldview, moral system, and means of success (skill vs. being the good guy).

I think S&S, IMO, does not work well with a scripted/story path approach. The DM intervening in the story is like the Christian God intervening in history, and that is antithetical with the atheist S&S world view in which history is completely random or the mere story of power struggles between men.

Karizma said...

I was linked by Jeff's Gameblog, but I am startled by how much I agree with you.

My problem is that *I* am indecisive. I like the feel of Sword and Sorcery, but I like the safety blanket I get with my character sheet in High Fantasy. Unfortunately this leads to a schizophrenic game style I run. Hopefully I'll hammer it out soon.

Thank you for the insight!

Santiago said...

I think there is no need to apply any of the styles to the extreme. You can go towards one of the two directions, with some small elements of the other. But both in the total extreme are near unplayable

Matthew Slepin said...

Although I agree with the broad outlines of this, I think you have taken it too far. I think you gloss over a key distinction, which is not that between HF and S&S, but between literature and gaming. Both genres of literature are about stories, which are not random concatenations of events, but involve shaping and manipulation of events to create a narrative.

D&D, at it's base, in my opinion, is about the struggle to level up. And in old-school, that comes about exactly through that unplanned assemblage of events that are the anathema of story. As Mike Mornard said, story only exists in retrospect in this style of play.

Thus both genres are inappropriate to old-school play in this sense. Certianly, elements of either or both can be introduced for colour (Hobbits! Rangers! Blackrazor!). But that's just colour.

S&S literature is about Heroes (in the original sense): larger than life fellows who trample thrones etc. They are far more competent than regular humans. They are that way in their first appearances and they are that way in the final appearances. They do not "level-up", even if the circumstances of their life change of the course of their story.

Contrariwise, HF protagonists often do "level-up", with the prototypical specimen being the Farm Lad who goes out and becomes King or a Jedi or whatever. But, as you say, there stories depend upon a number of elements that aren't appropriate for old-school play.

I love old-school play. And I love S&S. But if I want to play a game steeped in S&S lit (or HF lit for that matter), I think that D&D is just an inappropriate vehicle. That's why I continue to wrestle with my own S&S game [http://sites.google.com/site/thefiendish/Home/swords-of-fortune]

Matthew Slepin said...

[Bah! I forgot to post the end of my argument.]

I think the phenomena that you are describing is not so much a shift from a game wanting to be S&S to a game wanting to be HF, as it is from a game based upon war-gaming to a game based upon literature (specifically, heroic fantasy of whatever stripe). And that fits right into the natural history of the thing.

D&D was created and first played by war-gamers. War-games have no "story" as such and the characters are, at heart, just pieces. But the second-generation of gamers (such as myself) came to D&D without any war-gaming background. We, instead, generally came to the game from having read The Hobbit or whatever. Notice how the 1981 Moldvay rules make this explicit. That made our approach different, as we expected more of a story.

War-gaming has faded in popularity, but the fantasy genre remains strong; stronger actually than in the 70's. That reinforces it's influence upon gamers.

[Having said that, I'm really not sure how computer games fit into this. I'm afraid that I never really played them much and always found them a poor substitute (at best) for role-playing. However, I know that more and more gamers get into the hobby via computer games.]

Santiago said...

Excellent post Matthew and I agree with most of them.

There are of course big differences bewteen gaming and literature. In this article I just focused on the similarities, or it would otherwise be too long.

Andreas Davour said...

I'm not sure about this rules light thingie.

Burning Wheel is very much a S&S game, and it's also a fairly gritty and deadly system. But, I don't think it can be considered "lite" anyway you twist it.

Santiago said...

IMO, rules light is not essencial for S&S.

The only reason (a very good one still) that I see rules light a good choice for S&S games, is that it's novels usually feature high paced action. So you need your system to resolve things quickly to get that high paced feel.

Andreas Davour said...

That argument has some weight to it.

Sometimes I see the "rules lite" argument tossed around willy nilly as an inherent trait in the "old school".

Chris T said...

I just found this excellent post via LotFP.

Whoa! You've really distilled something essential about "Old School" "Sandbox" gaming.

And you're right in Dragonlance rail-road style really does require the DM or Fate point derived deus ex machina to keep the characters and story alive for the inevitable triumph over evil.

Maybe it isn't atheistic but pagan along the lines of Homer's quarrelling deities using heroes as their pawns.

Again, nice work.

Santiago said...

Yes, I am starting to think that califying S&S as atheistic may not be that precise. Even though many of it's most important authors were atheists in their personal lives

Matthew Slepin said...

I think "humanistic" is a bit closer. The gods may exist or they may not. It ultimately doesn't much matter because if they exist, they don't love us. As nasty as people may be, in the S&S cosmos, they are all we have.

Underminer said...

Interesting post and observations. I was in the hobby from it's beginnings, and came to RPGs from Wargaming. OD&D for many of us was just a skirmish wargame. My characters were just a mass of numbers with names like Horst and Wilhelm instead of 1st Panzer Division.
However, I was also a avid fan of Fantasy. Shortly after starting I found myself unhappy with D&D. This led me to the first edition of Empire of the Petal Throne, which, while I liked the setting, was pretty much D&D with funny names and monsters.
I went back to D&D and tried to make it fit my vision of what FRPGs should be. Then I picked up the first edition of Chivalry and Sorcery in 1977 which, I believe, was more of the High Fantasy (or as I call it, Heroic Fantasy)type of game. I ran that until 2nd edition C&S came out, switched to that, and haven't run any other, escept for a short forays into Earthdawn and Gardasiyal (both of which also would probably fall into the Heroic Fantasy style of game.
I've had player characters die, but never at the rate that the old D&D characters did, and usually I try ot avoid killing characters. For me, the ongoing story and continuity are the important things.
Very good obeservations.

Chris T said...

@Matthew Slepin: I'll settle for 'humanistic'.

Santiago said...

@ Underminer: excellent comment, very informative and from a true eyewitness of the history of the game.

I find one thing in common between S&S and wargames:

"English vs. French, Napoleonic period" - who is the morally redeemable who should win? ¡NO ONE! :D

Skill, luck and the resources of the commander are the only factor for victory

Anonymous said...

Good article, but please work on your spelling and grammar; it's a little off-putting (it's 'tropes' dammit!).

Santiago said...

Thanks.

I'll try to do my best, since I am not a native English speaker.

By The Sword said...

I think Fantasy RPG's, namely D&D are the way they are now because of the natural evolution of the genre'.

Back in the 1970's when Role playing games first came to prominence, everything was new. It was the first time that adults could sit at a table an pretend they were elves or barbarians or wizards. Gygax and his ilk created a rules system that allowed us to do that, but as time wore on Elves, wizards and magic items were no longer mysterious. Red dragons with -1 Armor classes and 88 hit points weren't so much of a threat any more. Half orcs weren't so uncommon. So the rules evolved and gave us bigger, badder beasties, tougher dragons, drow elves, half-ogres and basically had one-upped the previous set of rules.
After 35 years of one-upmanship, by just about every game manufacturer we now have half-dragon/illithid, anthropomorphic, dual-scimitar-wielding heroes with uber-stats and an inter-dimentional steamer-trunk full of magic items. It's not that the games REQUIRE that you have all of this crap. it's just that in order to keep themselves in business (and essentially, alive) for all these years a gaming company has to push the envelope and publish new stuff or new editions.

As for taking the "power away from the DM", what power has the DM lost? It has always been established that the DM's word was law and if he or she wanted or didn't want something in the game then it was so.

Now the players have more options, this is true. But the DM has the final say in what goes in the game. The DM could always rule that you all start at level 1 with no magical gear, that you can only be a human, that you can't be a spell caster and that challenges (monsters) are status quo and not tailored to meet the party's challenge level.

I am not going to try and make a case about what edition is better than another. Ultimately it is up to the DM to run a game with the system that he or she feels most comfortable with. But the elements of "sword and sorcery" gaming can easily be placed in any edition.

gnikrul said...

You have an interesting and well thought out article here, but ultimately I find its premises flawed. Calling simulationist gaming "old school" or "swords and sorcery style," and narrativist gaming "new school" or "high fantasy style" does not change their essential nature. By tying the lables of literary genres to these concepts you only render them even more occluded to the average reader.

You have not created a new way of examining DnD, you have recreated the existing way but with a bit of your personal bias against narrativism (or, perhaps, simply d20's ability to support narrativism) included.

Santiago said...

Oh, I don't really think about games using the GNS model. That model has not been useful for me for understanding games.

And D&D never took it into account for it's creation, so it really does not apply to it.